Roundtable: What do ordinary Israelis want from their leaders?

More than six months since the Hamas attack on Israel, dozens of Israelis are still held hostage, over 30,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, and there’s no peace in sight.

Today, On Point: Ordinary Israelis look for a path forward.

Pnina Pfeuffer, founder of the New Haredim and leader within the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel.

Udi Goren, Israeli whose cousin was killed on October 7th and his body is being held hostage in Gaza.

Josh Drill, served as a platoon commander in the Israel Defense Forces, now a leader in the Israeli Change Generation movement.

Lazar Berman, reporter for The Times Israel.

Part I

MEGHNA CHAKRABARTI: There have been reports of attempts to reach some sort of deal between Israel and Hamas, one that could potentially lead to the release of several dozen Israeli hostages in exchange for a pause in hostilities in Gaza. However, just today, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, at a meeting with hostages' relatives, said that he would invade the Gazan city of Rafah, quote, "with or without a deal."

This follows a phone call Netanyahu had with President Joe Biden on Sunday, where Biden reiterated his warning against a Rafah invasion, unless civilians are properly protected. Biden has called a Rafah invasion, quote, "a red line." Currently, more than half of Gaza's two and a half million people are in Rafah.

On the West Bank, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said yesterday that an invasion of Rafah would be, quote, "the biggest catastrophe in the Palestinian people's history," end quote. Netanyahu said that falling short of the total destruction of Hamas leaves the Israeli people in peril. Quote, "The idea that we will halt the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question," the prime minister said in a statement released by his office.

The war has caused deep and painful political fractures amongst the Israeli people. Just last night, thousands protested in Tel Aviv, calling on the government to make a deal with Hamas, and created a large sign near the Israeli Defense Headquarters that read, "Rafah can wait, the hostages cannot."

Meanwhile, far right ministers are threatening the dissolution of Netanyahu's government. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich warned that Netanyahu's government would, quote, have no right to exist unless Israel invades Rafah, according to the Times of Israel. Similarly, hard right minister Itamar Ben-Gvir tweeted that any deal, quote, equals the dissolution of the government.

Both men have called for the destruction of Rafah. So today, we want to hear how people, not politicians, are living through these divisions In Israel. We're joined by Pnina Pfeuffer. She's the founder of the New Haredim, a leader within the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel, and she joins us from Jerusalem.

Pnina, welcome to On Point.

PNINA PFEUFFER: Hi, it's great to be with you.

CHAKRABARTI: Also with us today is Josh Drill. He served as a platoon commander in the Israel Defense Forces and is now a leader in the Israeli Change Generation movement. He was On Point back in August. He joins us from Tel Aviv. Josh, welcome back to the show.

JOSH DRILL: Thank you. Appreciate it. Looking forward to the dialogue.

CHAKRABARTI: And our third guest today is Udi Goren. He is an Israeli whose cousin was killed on October 7th and whose body is still being held hostage in Gaza. He joined us on the show in November and he's with us from Pardes, Hanna. Udi, welcome back to the show.

Udi Goren, are you with us? Looks like his line just dropped on us. We're going to get back to him in a moment. So Pnina and Josh, let me first ask you, and Pnina, I'll start with you. What has the past month, a couple of weeks even, been like in your daily life in Israel? How much is what's happening in Gaza, a part of your daily existence?

PFEUFFER: In a way it's been less prevalent in my life than October, November, December, which was like the time when I was also running programs to help families reach families. So I was more directly involved in what was going on. But on the other hand, I was in the States for a conference two weeks ago.

I got back on a Friday and Saturday night was the Iranian missile attack. So it's the new normal, which is completely abnormal.

CHAKRABARTI: And Josh, same question to you.

DRILL: So I would say in the past couple of weeks on a personal level and in my activities, I've been urging for peace and explaining why peace is the only way to stop this violence.

It seems to many Israelis, maybe even the majority of Israelis right now. Something that shouldn't be spoken about, something that's disconnected from reality. But to me, it is most logical, that especially after the atrocities that we've been through, that as a nation, as a country, that we fight for peace.

I think there's no other choice. And as a part of change generation, we've been very certain in making our voices heard. That number one, the hostages need to be returned. Immediately. And number two, we need a new Israeli leadership.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay, hostages need to be returned and new leadership.

Can you tell me in a little bit more detail then, beyond those two things, what would peace look like? How do you define it? Does it include an immediate ceasefire? Tell me more.

DRILL: In terms of a ceasefire and return of the hostages, which is a short-term goal, I think that piece is something that needs to be worked towards.

Not just in the Palestinian and Israeli leadership and sector leaders, but also that it needs to come from the grassroots. It needs to come from the Israeli and Palestinian people themselves. And I think that both of these movements currently are going through a spiral of silence. We're a minority voice on both sides.

There are many that are scared to talk about peace. There are many that are scared to criticize their own leadership. But I think that making our voices heard, emboldening each other, strengthening each other, is the way forward.

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, what do you think about that?

PFEUFFER: First of all, I find it very encouraging.

I know Josh, we were on a program together. That had to do with this subject matter, and in a different lifetime almost, but it was only a year ago, I think. I think it's very encouraging that Josh is talking about peace, not just about an agreement. Or, like that word has been ostracized.

And it's really day to day language. I have to say that he sounds more optimistic than I am at the moment, although it's also my greatest wish and goal that we can reach some kind of a better, we can definitely be in a better place. This is like the worst. Maybe it can get worse, but this is [the] most awful situation I think I've seen in my lifetime in Israel, and I'm 45. So and I lived through the 2000s, the second intifada. I've lived through some things. It's been bad. This is definitely worse.

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, if I may, forgive me for interrupting, but you've said a lot there that I would love to actually hear a little bit more in detail.

So when you say this, there's a lot that's contained within the this is the worst and what specifically are you thinking about?

PFEUFFER: So first of all as Israelis, we're all very shaken because we felt powerful to a degree, there's always this, there's this unique Israeli phenomenon where we are the victims and the superpower at the same time in our own minds, like we can switch from one to the other.

And I think now we've switched to the victim feeling. Despite the fact that clearly, we're still a superpower, we've done a lot of damage in Gaza, and we continue to do. And that's also, I've never been involved in Gaza specifically. I've been to the West Bank, East Jerusalem, I've done work, but no access and also probably less, just whatever.

So it just, seeing what's going on there and realizing that at some point this is going to have to end, we all know this, whether we're right wing, left wing, extreme, radical, moderate. We all know at some point that's going to end. And I feel like there's no plan for that ending. We don't know what that means, what that looks like.

And that's something that's I think for all Israelis and maybe also for Palestinians. We just know the leadership doesn't even, it's not just not giving us answers. It doesn't even feel beholden to us in any way to provide any explanations. Or, going forward or what's happening.

CHAKRABARTI: So when Josh called for a change in government, to put it more bluntly, this being this current government, being the Netanyahu government, would you agree or disagree with that? Pnina, if you say that you don't even feel like they're representing the Israeli people or giving answers.

PFEUFFER: I don't know. It's not a matter of representing. I just don't feel like they're very interested in what we have to say, whether we voted them in or not. First of all, to be honest, I didn't like this government from day one. This is, to me, a terrible government regardless of October 7th, but after October 7th happened, I don't even know how Netanyahu is able to show his face in public. I just, really, it's beyond my capacity to understand how these people don't even have the, I don't know, the grace to say when this is going to be over at X time and then we will leave or we will have elections or whatever it is. But I guess he's just made out of different stuff than I am.

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, hang on here for just a second. Because you said a lot of interesting things and I presume when you say just after October 7th happened, you don't know how they can, he can show his face being Netanyahu, because of the security failures that allowed to let October 7th happen.

PFEUFFER: It's also security failures, obviously where over a thousand citizens were massacred.

So that's the first. Most obvious thing, but it's not just that it's this whole concept that he built of what Israel security is, relying on and the relationship we had with Hamas and whatever it was he thought was going to work, clearly did not. And he's been pulling Israel in that direction and away from any other direction that people like Josh and I have been trying to campaign for years, and now when you have this massive egregious failure, you still think you have the right to keep pulling in that very wrong direction.

Part II

CHAKRABARTI: Josh, just kind quickly, I wanted to ask you about something that Pnina had said. She said the word peace, she felt that the word peace has been ostracized in daily language in Israel. What do you think of that?

DRILL: Yeah, I think that's certainly an accurate representation of the reality.

I think that the peace movement and in general, those that speak about peace, those that speak about reconciliation and justice, it's absolutely not a prevalent opinion right now in Israel. That's what leaders like Pnina and I are focused on advocating for, because we look at this government, this is the most irresponsible government that Israel has ever had.

It's the most extreme, from day one, instead of working for what Israelis actually wanted. They immediately started passing their judicial overhaul to try to take over Israel's institutions so that Netanyahu can get out of his court issues, which no longer even comes up to news anymore. I firmly believe that this government is a danger to the state of Israel.

And that it is in our interest to have a new leadership as soon as possible.

CHAKRABARTI: When you say the desire for even thoughts of peace is not the prevailing attitude in Israel. Do you mean amongst the government, amongst the people, both? I think for a society, there's a lot of different polls that can tell you different percentages.

But I can tell you from my experience that yes, I do find myself to be a part of minority and that I'm talking about reconciliation. Now I'm talking about peace. I think that it's probably a similar picture on the Palestinian side as well. And I think that, if we look at an earlier Smotrich and Ben-Gvir were mentioned, this is an example of Jewish supremacists who are extreme in their ideology.

We saw Smotrich just say yesterday that Rafah needs to be obliterated. Months before he said that the village of Huwara needs to be obliterated. That's breaking the law. If you're a minister in the government, you call to destroy a place to kill everyone there. You need to sit in jail.

And I think that until Israeli society changes the prism of thought, and instead of looking at the Palestinians as the enemy and the Israelis, as we need to look at the subgroups within both societies and understand who we can work with moving forward to make a peace that works for everyone, because Hamas is certainly not a partner for peace, but there are other Palestinians that could potentially be.

So we look at Netanyahu's policies of strengthening Hamas, making sure that they have money. Making sure that it can be funneled through Qatar, because it's his interest that there not be a two-state solution, that there not be a peace resolution. So I think that in order to move forwards, we need to, on one hand, make our voices heard, because that's the only way to get messages out.

And also work together.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah. So Josh and Pnina, hang on here for a second because we do have Udi Goren on the line. He's joining us from Pardes Hanna in Israel. And as I mentioned earlier, his cousin was in Israel. One of the hostages after October 7th. Now, Udi had joined us on the show in November, and then the following month December of 2023 Udi found out that his cousin had been killed.

Udi, thank you for coming back on the show, and I'm very sorry to hear about your cousin.

UDI GOREN: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

CHAKRABARTI: Obviously the ongoing plight of the hostages is central to how the Israeli people are thinking through this moment in their lives and in their histories.

From your point of view as a family member, what have the last couple of weeks been like for you?

Udi, are you with us? We will get him back on the line as soon as I possibly can. Udi, are you there?

GOREN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. We've got some kind of glitch going on, but go ahead and repeat your answer. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

GOREN: Yeah. So I was saying that the last few months have been a complete roller coaster.

In the past, I would say, two months, there's been talk of a deal. And now we're getting to the point in which, because of which Josh mentioned, Smotrich, that came out and said that we need to continue the war and so on. And, we have had high expectations, not necessarily of the government, because I feel many people in Israel, I would say most people and polls show it, have very little expectation of the current government, but there have been another party that joined this government to back it up through the war.

And I feel that.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay, we're going to try and get that line to be more stable, Udi. I'm really sorry. What I'd like to do, actually, Pnina and Josh, since you talked about how there is considerable division amongst what people think about how Israel should conduct its actions in Gaza. Pnina, let me turn back to you on that.

What are the discussions like in your world, amongst your circles, about what's happening in Gaza itself, and vis a vis, whether or not it's actually contributing or detracting from Israel's security?

PFEUFFER: If you're asking me specifically about the Haredi community, the ultra-Orthodox community that I'm a part of, I'm part of other communities as well, but I think, the first o- ed I ever wrote, which was, I think a decade ago, or nearly that, was about the right wing radicalization of the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel and how, especially the youth, has moved from being centrist politically to being right wing and sometimes radical right wing. So we're seeing that come into play now with the way people feel about Gaza, which is also, you have to remember that most Haredi men and the Haredi women as well, don't enlist in the IDF.

CHAKRABARTI: Right.

PFEUFFER: They don't serve an army, right? So it's all also a very theoretical discussion for people because their children are not serving. So there's the also that just it's not, you're not talking about your immediate circles, who are there doing whatever it is. And it's also, there's a certain being removed from the situation, I've never had a family member in the army.

My entire extended family is in the states, and my immediate family, I have a father, who's whatever, he came from, my brother didn't serve and none of my brother's in law, or my ex, or any of these people we don't know exactly what it means. There's a certain we're a bit removed from Israeli society in that sense.

But on the other hand, the political representation of Haredim in the government is very strong and once you're in the government, you're advocating for this war. Because the government is making these decisions and the security cabinet and whatever. So there's this very. So it's a paradox.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah, a paradox.

Pnina, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I think we have Udi back with us. Udi, are you here? Udi Goren, can you hear me?

GOREN: Yes.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. I can see we've gone directly to cell phone now, fingers crossed. Let me just rephrase the question that I had very quickly. I, at the top of the show, I read I, I shared with listeners that Prime Minister Netanyahu.

In a meeting with family members of hostages, said that on whether or not there's even a temporary deal to get more hostages out of Gaza, that an invasion of Rafah will happen. And again, just as a family member, how do statements like that, how do they land with you?

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. We will keep trying. Josh, I'm going to come back to you in a second, but let me introduce Lazar Berman into the conversation. He's a reporter with the Times of Israel and joins us from Jerusalem. Lazar, welcome to the show.

LAZAR BERMAN: Hi, Meghna. Thanks for having me on.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah, and I apologize to everyone with the for the technical difficulties we've been having with Udi's line, because he's a very important voice that we do want to hear from.

But we'll keep working on it. So Lazar, the challenge that we have when we do these kinds of roundtables is each and every person who joins us, in this case, Pnina, Udi and Josh, they represent something powerful in the communities that we want to learn more about. But also it's impossible to get an overall picture of how a nation feels or the multiplicity of opinions about any particular issue, so that's what I'm hoping you can help us with. Is there polling, or from your reporting, how would you describe the various points of view that Israelis themselves have right now about the Netanyahu government and about the war in Gaza?

BERMAN: Sure, there's polling, there's my own anecdotes, there's my own insights, there's demonstrations. There's really a lot we can go on. If I had to characterize Israeli society before October 7th, I would say it was pretty evenly split. There was a very active and vocal anti Netanyahu, anti-government movement that demonstrated, sometimes blocked Tel Aviv, blocked Jerusalem, basically every week.

And that kind of ended with October 7th, there was shock and there was a rallying around the leadership effect. We said that unity government, which still holds up with guns, spending guns, joining the government. As time has gone on, and as especially the reservists have been released, we've seen that start to fray, start to come apart. We've seen those demonstrations calling for double down efforts to get the hostages out, become really anti Netanyahu demonstrations. And those are going on weekly, once again. And we've also seen a lot of questions about where this war is heading.

I would even say the war itself is over. There's one brigade in the Gaza Strip from a high of 28. So there's questions about whether the leadership right now is really doing all it can to achieve the war aims, which the public certainly backs. Or whether the Netanyahu government is also considering domestic political considerations.

I would say in general, this government is even to the left of what the average Israeli would say. I don't think the average Israeli, I know the average Israeli does not want to see the Hamas battalions in Rafah go untouched. They don't want to see Israeli troops pull out of the war while Hamas is still kicking.

Israel still has not achieved any of its war aims. So the Israeli public wants the war to continue. And the Israeli public is not eager to see a two state solution right now at all. Even you had the president, Isaac Herzog, who used to be the Labor Party leader, say in Davos that no Israeli in his right mind is thinking about a two-state solution right now. So that's not only a feature of this government or the right edge of this government.

CHAKRABARTI: Ah, okay. And what about the possibility of escalation regarding an invasion of Rafah?

BERMAN: First of all, if a hostage deal is not reached in the coming days, I think we will start to see movement on the ground.

That movement would be the start of the evacuation of civilians. And then the troops that are training right now for that, some of whom have been pulled out of the Gaza Strip to train for the operation, will start to make their moves as well. And that is something that the public certainly backs. You have polling. I was just looking at pulling from March, but there's some that's more recent, that a large majority of the public wants to see that, even a large majority of the American public wants to see an operation Rafah from the recent Harvard-Harris poll. So this is something that the Israeli public is behind.

They understand that there can be no peace, even if someone dreams about peace with the Palestinians. And I would say most Israelis do, in a broad sense. It cannot happen with Hamas in the Gaza Strip and whatever Hamas does, it will try to get in the way of a better future, not only for Israelis, but also for Palestinians, as we saw on October 7th.

CHAKRABARTI: But just to be clear, Lasar, you said if there's not a deal on hostages, but from my understanding, just this week, as I quoted earlier, Prime Minister Netanyahu said, it doesn't matter if there's a deal or not, the IDF is going into Rafah.

BERMAN: That doesn't mean it's gonna go in now. It doesn't mean it's gonna go in massive force, right?

There's a lot of wiggle room he's leaving himself there. Right now, the terms of the deal. There's many terms of the deal that are being reported. Even when I speak to officials, they give me different versions, but we could be talking about an initial ceasefire of up to 10 weeks. Up to 10 weeks.

It's going to be very hard to restart the war. So we might see a very targeted operation in Rafah at that point. Either way, I don't think it's going to be massive like the Gaza City operation, which had three divisions. It'll even be less than the Khan Yunis operation. That was one division.

And I participated in that actually, as a captain for two months in the reserves. I think this will be more targeted anyway, but it is going to be of a certain size, multiple brigade operation. Unless we go and we have a first stage of a deal and we get pushed into the summer, then I think it will be much smaller, but Netanyahu will be able to say, look, I still went into Rafah.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. Now, Josh, I'm going to come back to you in a second, I promise, but Lazar, since you mentioned that Harvard Harris poll from, that just came out a couple of days ago, I'm looking at it now, and it shows that 80% of registered voters in the United States said in this poll that they support Israel more in the war.

Israel than Hamas, which is a key dichotomy, but I'm not sure if the poll asked if they support Israel over the Palestinian people. But definitely 80% of registered voters say they support Israel more than Hamas, amongst younger voters. It found that 64% of those 25 to 34 said they support Israel more.

And then one last little point. Yeah, it says 61% of respondents again in the United States support a ceasefire only after certain conditions have been met. That those conditions, including Hamas being removed from power and hostages released. So Josh, let me come back to you again, given everything Lazar said about the support for the aims of the Israeli government in Gaza.

Can you talk to me about how you see that?

DRILL: I don't see the total destruction of Hamas as a strategic goal, being able to be accomplished through military means. The total destruction of Hamas is an ideological win. It's a power structure win. It's changing the power structures within the Palestinian society.

Currently in Gaza, Hamas obviously has been leading since 2006, 2007. It needs to be the state of Israel's policy to take Hamas out of power. Now, in order to do that, you obviously need to support another power. That you think would probably, potentially be better for peace, but the Israeli government refuses to do that.

They refuse to strengthen any Palestinian power that's not Hamas. And again, we look at these polls and we look at these statistics about Israeli society not wanting two state solution. Of course, Israeli society is not one two state solution, when Hamas is in power. When Hamas is in power in Gaza, in order to move forwards, it's a strategic way of going about it, by stages from grassroots, from meeting with the other side and obviously not with Hamas.

Part III

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, can I ask you very quickly, you told our producer earlier, in a conversation before today's broadcast, and I want to be sure I have this right, about a view that you can even see from your apartment, from the balcony of your apartment.

PFEUFFER: I see the Israel Museum from my balcony. Can you be a little more specific?

CHAKRABARTI: From what I understand, you said not far from your apartment. That there's a view of people being sick and bombed so close by, I don't know if you meant that literally.

PFEUFFER: No, I don't have a view.

I don't think that I said ... it's not on the other side of the world. It's not like maybe the United States and Vietnam or Iraq or any of these. It's very close physically. We don't feel that way. We feel like it's very compartmentalized away from us.

And sometimes we have these little, especially in Jerusalem, by the way, we don't get a lot of like Tel Aviv or central Israel. Most of the time we go about our business. But for me, at least, it's this kind of like nagging reality ongoing, whether it's because my daughter's friend is serving in Gaza or just because of the thought of that scale of destruction being carried out in my backyard.

And what that means for me as an Israeli, I'm not even talking about what it means for Palestinians. I'm talking about what it means for us. Like how will we come back from this? What will we look like when it's over? How will the world view us? How will we view ourselves? Like all these questions that are constantly in the back of my mind.

CHAKRABARTI: How do you think through those questions right now? Do you have an opinion or a thought about what it means for the Israeli people now, the world's already having a very strong response.

PFEUFFER: The world is having a strong response. And again, I view it through mainly through social media and just media.

So like I asked myself, is the antisemitism I'm seeing real, is it just exaggerated? It's very confusing. I think that's the best definition I have of what it feels like right now, because I used to have very clear opinions. I still have very clear values, but the reality has shifted.

So applying those values to a reality that has shifted is confusing. I don't know what I think about every single thing anymore. I do know certain things for sure. This government is bad. It has to go. By the way, I think most Israelis would agree with that, regardless of their politics, because just these devastating results in the situation.

We're, our foreign policy is definitely taking a hit and also, I think internally, just I can understand why people want to see, want to say things like we can't stop until Hamas is taken down. But it's disingenuous to tell the Israeli people that's going to happen within any near future timeframe.

It's not going to happen, but people think it is, and then they base their, like, when you're taking polls of people's opinions, you're also assuming that they know this, but they don't necessarily know that taking down Hamas as an entity is a year's long project, maybe decades.

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, just to you said you don't know if the anti Semitism is real because social media can definitely amplify small things.

PFEUFFER: No, I'm sure it's real. It is real.

CHAKRABARTI: I was just going to say. it's safe to say that it's real. How much of a, day to day phenomenon it is? Is it only on college campuses?

Do just people feel threatened? I understand. And that's also, that's also a concern because even though anti Semitism stands on its own, it is being triggered right now on a very large scale, and it's being visited upon Jews in the United States, in Europe, all over the world.

CHAKRABARTI: So Josh, let me turn back to you because Panina is asking, I think, very powerful questions that I may have no answer right now, but let me just shift it a little bit and ask you, as a young Israeli, how do you feel about your Israeli identity, about being a citizen of your nation? And I ask that through the lens of, in times past, or in fact, maybe even now, as you well know, many Americans have said, have felt like very conflicted about their American identity because of the actions of their nation.

Not to say they don't love their nation, but it's just there's a profound sense of conflict and people don't know where to go with that conflict. So I'm wondering if what you're experiencing.

DRILL: In addition to having an Israeli identity, I view myself as a Jewish person in this world. I'm a member of the Jewish people, I'm a member of the Israeli people.

There's certainly an ideal of how I'd like to see Israel. An Israel that does live in peace with its neighbors, that has equality across the boards. But I think that what we've seen in the past six months, and in fact, maybe even the past 15 years that Netanyahu has been in power has been the grinding halt of any peace process, annihilating Israel in the world, pushing the Jewish community in the United States and other places further away from Israel, and I think especially after an event like October 7th, it's certainly a time for society to have a moment of reckoning and look at the fact that Netanyahu has been in power for the past 15 years and look what he has led us to.

And that this is a moment where after the dust has settled, Israeli society is able to move forward and also move up. And I think that certain conceptions, during the previous elections, Netanyahu and Ben-Gurion Smotrich, they were talking about this completely right-wing government and how this government could guarantee peace because the left wing is weak and only the right wing can bring security.

And I think that for any logical person that can look at cause and effect, we've seen what these policies has led to, and I think that it's time to try something new.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay, Lazar. So this is where again, we need your reporting and especially given you're being on the diplomatic beat.

I just read an astonishing interview in the Times of Israel from the former spokesperson for hostage families. He just stepped away from that role, because it was a lot to have to do for six months. And he said pretty clearly in this interview that he felt one of the primary reasons why Prime Minister Netanyahu is continuing on the course that he is, he linked it directly to the possibility that he would lose his leadership, that the government would dissolve.

And he admitted that's a very cynical take, but he felt like in all the conversations that hostage families have had with the government, that is the message that they are getting. I'm wondering what light you can shed on that.

BERMAN: Yeah, I think a lot of this government, first of all, should be criticized for a lot, certainly for being in power when October 7th happened, even if it's the continuation of policies that Prime Minister Bennett and Prime Minister Lapid pursued as well when they were in power in recent years.

On the hostages, it's not an issue of technical decisions made by this government. And we have seen this government, even if initially the only war aim was to destroy Hamas, this government has increasingly gotten behind the idea of getting the hostages out. Even if it's because of public pressure, I won't discount that.

But the real reason is Hamas. I'm even shocked sometimes when I hear about the concessions that the government is making in terms of the hundreds of prisoners that they're willing to release, their willingness to not even check Palestinians moving back into Northern Gaza, of course, Hamas will take advantage of that. And their willingness to really put a pause to the operation in Gaza for a long time. I think at this point, and you're starting to hear that from Blinken, and we heard that from foreign secretary, David Cameron of the UK yesterday as well. It's Hamas. And that's the real reason.

And I understand that there are people who certainly want this government gone and are willing to use that as a stick to beat the government with, but I think ultimately even if mistakes have been made and not at every point has this government been focused enough on the hostages, the real reason is Hamas, and there's only so much any government can do when you're facing an organization like Hamas that feels like time is on its side and that it has survived the worst of the IDF campaign in Gaza.

CHAKRABARTI: Josh, how do you respond to that?

DRILL: At every single opportunity, the Israeli government ministers have delegitimized the Palestinian Authority. They've done everything in their power to minimize and depress any sort of Palestinian power that would come to the table to speak. Because the truth of the matter is, Netanyahu, he's scared.

And I don't think he has what it takes to make peace. I think he's only concerned with his political survival. I think it's hard to enter Netanyahu's brain right now with so much death and hostages and to try to enter the brain of someone who only cares about his political survival. I think it's horrible.

I think it's a sickness. And I think that we've reached the breaking point. This no longer has to do with for Netanyahu, against Netanyahu. As Lazar said, the government failed. They were in power on October 7th. Their ideology has been in power for the past 15 years. And it's time that the Israeli society try something new.

And I think that this rhetoric will be successful. I think that the peace camp, I certainly feel them rising up. I think that maybe there are those that don't feel it yet. But we're only really feeling the ripples, and I think that we're headed in a new direction.

CHAKRABARTI: Pnina, you've said that you feel politically homeless now, and even lonely because of that.

Do you see any one of Israel's parties as being a potential new home for you?

PFEUFFER: I don't think it's so much about parties, because the Israeli system is different than the American one, so it's a matter of coalitions.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah.

PFEUFFER: So it doesn't, I would still vote center left, like that's not going to change.

And that would depend on personal feelings and what kind of campaign they'll run. Sometimes on the left, there are anti authority sentiments that will influence my decision to vote one party over the other. When I say that I feel lonely, it's on a very personal level.

Also, I think the ground has shifted from under a lot of us and conversations have become difficult, whether it's with Palestinian colleagues, whether it's with Jewish radical left or center left or right wing. Conversations are just really fraught and there are so many assumptions about, if you, I don't know, if you're in the peace camp, and you say I support whatever, two state solution, whatever it is you want to support, you want to say like, this has to change.

Then you get things like, oh, so you support Hamas, you're giving them a prize. And then people on the radical left will get upset at the thought of any kind of support for a military campaign. Which I feel is, at least was in the beginning, I think it was totally justified.

Now I feel confused about it, but it's just, I think, on a very personal, I'm a political person. So a lot of my friendships are with people who have strong political opinions. And now it's just, it's lonely, not just for me. And I'm saying it because I think a lot of people feel that way.

You're asking how Israelis feel. I think a lot of Israelis feel confused and lonely right now.

CHAKRABARTI: Josh, do you feel similarly?

DRILL: I'm looking for an Israeli political entity or party that will speak openly about the need to end occupation and how they intend to go about that strategically. And I don't currently see a party that in my opinion, is ambitious or, intended enough.

CHAKRABARTI: Lazar Berman, we have about 30 seconds or so to go. I'm wondering where or what you'll be looking for in terms of indications of any change or next steps by the Israeli government in the next days or even weeks.

BERMAN: Sure. Tomorrow night, Wednesday night, we are expecting an answer back from Hamas to the Israeli-Egyptian proposal.

If that is acceptable, then we could see the Shin Bet and the Mossad leaders fly to Cairo to continue talks and try to nail down a deal. If this falls apart, then start watching civilians begin to be evacuated northward from Rafah and IDF troops starting to move into jump off positions to go into the final Hamas stronghold in the Gaza Strip.